Curse

Jeydra · Oct 09, 2008, 05:21 AM // 05:21

I'm writing this guide primarily because of moriz's Warrior's survival guide in RA which, all respect to moriz, I both disagree quite seriously with and think rather incomplete. This does not mean moriz is wrong - I know a lot of good players who disagree with me quite often. But if you have read moriz's guide, then reading this one will probably give you insights not found in his guide.

Introduction

RA, like all the other forms of PvP, is unique in its own manner. Its defining property is its uncertainty. You typically do not know what your opponents or your allies are running. You cannot call for Blackout on a Warrior, or Draw Conditions when Dazed, or spikes on a priority target - you might not even have Blackout in your team for example. Here you usually function alone, survive alone and, only if your teammates are uncommonly good, work together. You can hope for good teammates and you can hope for a balanced team, but there is neither guarantee that you'll get one nor your teammates will coordinate with you. What you can control is what you do - what class you play, what skills you bring, what you do on the battlefield - but no more. Individual skill is what matters most in RA.

In this guide I will distinguish between four situations: the case where neither team has a healer, the case where your team has a healer but your opponents do not, the case where the other team has a healer but yours does not, and the case where both sides have a healer. Your priority targets and general gameplay in all four cases will be different.

A small rant here: you don't need healers to win in RA, and I believe that having good players in a team is more important than having a good Monk. But the way the game works places emphasis on healers. A single Monk can easily hold off a single offensive character indefinitely, and depending on what that offensive character is, he might even be able to hold off two, for a very long time. On the other hand, the self-heals in the game are pretty weak. You cannot hold off concentrated focus fire for long even with the moderate self-heal you might bring to RA, and if you bring enough self-heal and defense such that you can survive you not only won't have any offense, you might as well play a healer yourself. In the end, like it or not (I certainly don't) healers are the crucial focii of RA, and games will be decided around them. I therefore distinguish between the four cases above.

General guidelines to target selection

Much of this guide can be summarized in one line, so if you read nothing else, read this:

KILL THE MOST DANGEROUS CHARACTER TO YOUR TEAM FIRST.

It takes experience to distinguish between who is dangerous and who is not, and who to select as a target when there are multiple dangerous characters. The possible permutations are huge - that's how much variability is in RA. That said, I can give some examples from which to illustrate the general principles.

Example: Both teams have a healer. Your opponent's team has one RaO Axe Ranger, one degen Mes, a Dom Mes and a Monk. In this case the prime target is the Dom Mes. Dom Mesmers are deadly against healers, and if left alone he can stack Backfire / Visions of Regret / Shame / other nasty stuff that completely shuts a Monk down. He must die, or be harassed enough such that your healer is relatively free. This means attack him even though there is a Monk on the other team. Don't make the same mistake lots of RA people do; they leave the Mesmer alone and then blame their Monk for being bad when the team starts dying.

Example: Neither team has a healer. Your opponents are a degen Ranger, a Moebius Strike / Death Blossom Sin, a Defy Pain Warrior and a Fragility Mesmer. In this case the priority target is the Sin. The Moebius / Death Blossom chain deals extreme damage, and without blocks and antimelee the damage is too much to heal through. You kill the Sin to prevent him from dealing his (extremely high) damage to your team. This goes only so far though. If the Sin is running Critical Defenses and you're a physical damager, then wailing away at the 75% block isn't going to be productive. Or, if one of your teammates is running Glyph of Immolation / Shatterstone / Steam Elementalist, then you can count on him to keep the Assassin from dealing damage. You can then switch to the Mesmer. He has the lowest armor and is the least likely to carry defensive skills, and so will be the fastest kill.

Example: Your team has no healer. Your opponent's team has a Monk, a Reaper's Mark Necro, a Fire Ele and a Moebius / Death Blossom Sin. Now you have to kill something quickly. You have very little time, because as time goes on the other team's damage will overwhelm your team's self-heal (see note above on why self-heals are insufficient). This means you kill whoever gives you a chance. If the Sin has Frenzy with no cancel stance that is a chance. If you manage to drag the Fire Ele away from the rest of his team, then that is a chance as well. If your ally spikes one target, then that target is a chance. Also, when your team has no healer and your opponents' do, then you should also play a little less defensively. If you think there's even a chance that you can kill one of the other team soon, then keep concentrating on damage, switching to a high set if need be, and neglect defensive skills like Steam. If it comes to trading your life to score a kill on the other team, do it, and hope the other team is slow to Res. This does not mean neglect defense entirely, but it means you take more risks.

Example: Both teams have a healer. Your opponent's team are a Monk, a Magebane Ranger, a Hammer Warrior and a Wail Of Doom Necro with Shield Bash. Your team has a Shock Axe Warrior, a Dervish with Wounding Strike, a Monk and an Air Elementalist with Blinding Flash and Mind Shock. Games like this tend to be the truest test of skill in RA. When you are not in an immediate kill-them-or-die situation then it is a lot more desirable to spread damage. Hit someone until he gets Guardian'ed, then switch targets. Nuke one guy with Lightning Orb while weakening the enemy Warrior with Enervating Charge. Spread the Deep Wound with Wounding Strike, watch your team's Warrior and KD the Monk with Mind Shock when he spikes, etc. Your aim is to deal as much damage as possible until the other team folds, and if it means hitting heavily-armored targets you should do so. Another thing to note here - if it looks like your team is going to fold first, then switch to defensive play (see below).

Example: Your team has a healer. Your opponent's team does not. Now is the time for defensive play. Since self-heals are inadequate, it is only a matter of time before your opponents die. Do all you can to defend your team's healer. If you are a Warrior, this means lineback. If you have defensive skills like Blurred Vision, this means concentrate on keeping them up. If you have spells like Mending Touch or Healing Breeze, use them on your healer. If you are certain your team will hold up, then (and only then) do you play offensively, seek out soft targets and kill them.

These examples are not comprehensive - there are a lot more different situations I can think of. But they illustrate the general principle.

And a final note in this section. The above examples tell you straight out what your opponents are running. Most of the time you do not know, but there are signposts to point you in the right direction. Watch for attunements, watch the classes that your opponents are, watch what items they are holding, etc. Here are some examples:

W/E with an Axe - there's a good chance this is a Shock Axe Warrior.
W/A with Hammer - there's a good chance this is a double KD Warrior (Magehunter's, Devastating Hammer, Backbreaker) with a shadow step.
R/? with Favorable Winds - expect Ranger spike.
E/A with Conjure Lightning - if you see this combo (shame on the Elementalist for casting Conjure Lightning within vision range, by the way), expect him to be an Elementalist with Daggers. Not always true, but if he's not using Daggers then you can pretty much expect him to be a bad player, too.

And so on and so forth. You typically do not know what your enemies are running until you engage them, but you have to stay on your toes during fights and find out. If they are running something you have not expected (eg. E/Mo healer with Word of Healing) then your priorities should change accordingly.

Some special situations and advanced techniques

Here I deal with some special cases:

1. Overextended targets. If someone goes two aggro bubbles away from his team / healer, he is an easy kill, especially if you have spike damage of some kind. Watch where the players and healers are and kill those who are too far for their teammates to support.

2. Your allies' actions. RA isn't about only you; there are 3 other players in your team. The more players you can gather on a target, the more damage you will do. See what your allies are doing, and especially if they are spikers, attack their targets. Also, every now and then you might have allies that support you (Rigor Mortis, Barbs, etc). Attack the hexed target then.

3. Hard Res. When dealing with hard resses you need to know if the enemy team is wiping. If they are, then hard resses don't matter, and you can let them finish and kill them after. If they are not, or if the game is a close race to see which team wipes first, then you need to kill the hard resser. A hard resser can drag games on for very long or even turn the game around by himself if he manages to keep ressing while yours runs out of Res Sigs. Also, sometimes it is better to let a hard res go off than to interrupt it. Rebirth for example destroy's the caster's energy while leaving the ress'ed character extremely vulnerable. Let the caster finish and kill the resurrected person. Flesh of my Flesh leaves both caster and target vulnerable. If your team can kill one of the other soon after the res finishes, let it cast. Death Pact Signet means both players are now vulnerable. If you can, kill the ress'ed person.

4. Just ressed. Someone who is just ressed has no prot on him, has 15% DP at least and his team's Monks are usually not paying close attention to him since his red bar is full. You can explode him with spike damage if you have it.

5. Self heal and defense. As I wrote above, self-heals are insufficient, but they can play a part in target selection. That's because some self-heal and defense can seriously delay a kill. For example, if one Ranger is carrying Lightning Reflexes while another is not, it makes sense to kill the Ranger without Lightning Reflexes first. He is vulnerable, the other Ranger is not. If an Elementalist is carrying Aura of Restoration while spamming Lightning Hammer and Lightning Orb, it makes sense to kill someone else first. The general principle is to kill the easiest target. If this Elementalist with Aura of Restoration has 3 Warriors as allies, then in spite of self-defense he is the first target to kill.

6. Bad players. All things being equal you want to kill good players before bad players. A good player playing a bad bar is usually more dangerous than a bad player playing a good bar. An extreme example might be a Warrior with Mending who puts it on his team's Monk, changing targets and causing damage. It's a bad bar, yes, but this Warrior is using it as best as he can. Compare this to a Warrior with a standard Devastating Hammer bar but stays nonstop on a Monk carrying Shield Bash and Disciplined Stance while attacking through Spiteful Spirit and Clumsiness. The Mending Warrior is going to contribute more to his team's cause, and thus makes a more important target. Though it is easiest to tell if a player is good or not by their actions on the battlefield, there are some ways to tell beforehand. An Elementalist who casts Elemental Attunement before Air Attunement is usually good. Any character holding a Spear + Shield and is not half Paragon is usually good. Any character holding a Tormented Shield is usually good. Another way to judge is what titles they display while waiting. Rank 7+ Gladiators are usually good. And so on and so forth.

PS: There are good players who play bad bars in RA, just for fun. Recognize and respect them when you see them.

7. Hard counters. Every now and then you will meet players who seriously counter your allies. The most common example is the blindbot. Good blindbots in RA are rare, but if one is present and is left alone he can utterly kill a physical's DPS. Rust incapacitates some builds and is another example, as is getting camped by a Magebane Ranger with 3 interrupts. If you notice these hard counters, and your ally who's getting shut down is good, then the person with the hard counter becomes a big target. Don't do this for everyone though. If a Warrior is carrying Gladiator's Defense and Riposte, he isn't worth the effort unblinding.

8. Non-max armor. Every now and then you will see players with non-max armor in RA. You should recognize them easily once you start hitting them. If you see them, kill them first.

9. Superior runes. Superior runes are relatively common in RA. You cannot tell whether your opponents are running this until they start casting / hitting. Then you look at their damage. For example, if you are hexed with a Backfire that does 147 damage the Mesmer is running 16 Domination; if you take 127 damage from Rodgort's Invocation the Elementalist is running 16 Fire, and so on. Players with Superior runes are easier spike targets and are more vulnerable to pressure. You might exploit this knowledge if you're a Sin looking for the next target to spike down for example.

10. Following Res Sigs. Following Res Sigs is a relatively advanced technique that is not necessary all that often, but still something that should be done by a good player. Expect all players except Monks to carry Res Sig in RA. This means that if you kill the same player three times in a row, he will not be able to Res his teammates and his Res Sig will go unused. Since Res Sigs are so important to RA play, this can be a tremendous advantage. If there are only two enemies left and one of them uses a Res on someone who has not Ressed - you have to be following Res Sigs to know this - then that someone is a bigger target than normal. If you leave him alone he might Res and you'll be against 4 players; if you kill him then you'll only have to deal with two. Sometimes there are players who don't bring Res Sigs, or bring Res but don't use it for a long time. Recognize these players, and exploit them. If someone does not use his Res for a long time while under no pressure, then he is less a priority. And a final, minor note: if someone dies and stays dead for a long time, and then gets ressed, expect him to use his Res Sig at once if he has one equipped.

11. Following spike builds. This is a not-so-advanced but more immediately relevant technique that should be followed by all good players. Know what your opponents are running, and know how dangerous they are. If someone is running Glyph of Sacrifice -> Earthquake -> Shadow Walk -> Aftershock, then know that the cooldown of that spike is 45 seconds, and in between those spikes the Elementalist is not dangerous and so not a priority target. If it's Backbreaker, know that Backbreaker needs 10 adrenaline, and in between those spikes the Warrior is less dangerous and so not a priority target. If it's Beguiling Haze, know that the cooldown is 20 seconds, and between the spikes the Sin is not dangerous and so not a priority target. Again, knowing all these cooldowns and costs come with experience.

12. Self-weakening skills. Frenzy is the most common skill, but other examples include Physical / Elemental resistance, and Frenzied Defenses (with no Protective Spirit). If you see these skills, then you can deal more damage to the guy in question. All things being equal then a Mesmer with Physical Resistance up is easier to kill than one without, and is the bigger target.

PS: Physical Resistance is utterly useless. In case some people have not realized it, all it takes for a good physical DPS'er to do is to switch to an Elemental mod (which he should be carrying anyway to hit Warriors with), and then he can laugh freely at the self-inflicted -armor ...

13. Minion Masters. MMs are in general bad characters for RA play, but they do show up. When playing against a Minion Master you can usually ignore the minions; there aren't enough bodies for a sizable army anyway. The exception to this comes when the enemy team has little damage. For example, if the MM is in a team with a Dom Mes and two Monks, then most of the damage is going to come from the minions. If you kill them, even the self-heal that a player might bring to RA will be enough to survive and not lose.

14. Spirits. You generally want to engage a team before they put up spirits, or stay in your teammates' spirits range. Also some spirits warrant killing quickly, sometimes before players, even. Preservation is one such example: if this spirit stays up, then the Ritualist who used it will be that much harder to kill. Shadowsong and Displacement need to die if you want your team's physicals to deal damage; Favorable Winds should be killed if there are enough Rangers on the enemy team. There are some more extreme spirits that rarely show up but can be a huge threat if they do; Nature's Renewal and Quickening Zephyr fall into this category. Use common sense when dealing with spirits to assess if they are threats. If playing offensively then defensive spirits are the ones to take down; offensive spirits like Pain and Bloodsong can be ignored. If playing defensively then the reverse is true.

15. The Priest. The priest is usually not a big target. If your team can wipe another team once, you can usually do it again. You break off to get the priest only when you fight to a stalemate and your team won't lose 3v4 while you're away.

PS: If possible, refrain from fighting near the Priest. He does deal damage that matters when it's a close fight, and he also heals his teammates when they need it if they're smart enough to run next to him.

16. Flag carriers. If someone is carrying the flag, he has no defense from weaponsets. If one of your team is carrying the flag, then kill the enemy flagger so he can plant safely (and make sure to return the flag).

Final words

You can't win every game, and sometimes a fighting defeat is a great achievement. But you can try, win close games and have fun. If you do your job well you might win accolades from your team. Since most praise in RA goes to the Monk, it is especially satisfying when your teammates say 'thanks for Blinding that War, he was going to kill me' or 'thanks for that interrupt on Migraine'. You might even make top-tier friends if you distinguish yourself (I have for example seen Tommy in RA twice, and a friend of mine eventually became a valuable member of a guild who scouted him out in RA).

Good luck, have fun, and I wish you many memorable games.

*****
Streamlined even further, and added some content.
Sensible comments are welcome; I have no problems if you disagree with me (like I wrote above, I know a lot of good players who disagree with me). But please be sensible and stay on topic. I can be reached via IGN or by PM here on the boards as well.

007wood · Oct 09, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Wow awesome guide there, nice read

Anime Divine · Oct 09, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

very good written. altough its common sense for experienced players.
this one made me laugh "

Quote:

Any character holding a Tormented Shield is usually good.

" yes be very aware for those

. but also any character that swap shields are ussually good.
i have 4 shields with different sets. and 2 different weapons
+10 against lightning damage- air eles i laugh in their faces when they do like 50 max damage to me

+ 7 against ele damage on weapon

+10 vs slashing/piercing damage(depends if i see alot of rangers its peircing)-- warrior/sin/ranger +7 vs physical on weapon

blind duration 20% reduced-- shadowsong/blindbots

a regular -5 20%---- ussually on tormented cos its also pve shield

hehe now im just bragging.

so now i have a question say you have 1 monk 1 axe war(me) 1mesmer 1 ranger

fighting 2 monks a paragon and ride the lighning ele./ 1 monk 1 resto rit a paragon and ride the lighning ele
how do you counter 2 monks. never seem to be able to beat them.

Quote:

4. Spirits. You generally want to engage a team before they put up spirits, or stay in your teammates' spirits range.

well there is a risk to that. since the first 10-15 secs of the game we determine/analyse
the oposing team if you rush in to quikly you may not kill the spirits in time while taking a heavy beating. trust me i have tried. better to have a ranger rush in and throw a distract and run back.

Rak Orgon of Beowulf · Oct 09, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

nice read. good guide. RA is not predictable at all but there is a method the madness.

i had a kill count match we won 1-0 sudden death...i took out a backbreaker for it (temple strike dagger ranger) funny match though

Luminarus · Oct 09, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Pretty good guide, however dont judge someone by whether or not they are wielding a spear. Look at guru population and then tell me that nubs dont read it... seriously

However it is a good indication. Tormenteds again dont symbolise a good player, they symbolise a good ursan, or someone with lots of money/pve experience. True, they show that the player has spent lots of time on that char, but I know I saw a warrior, black fow, tormented sword and shield, chaos gloves, dread mask... the works with a palading wammo build THAT HE DIDNT EVEN USE CORRECTLY.

Against that 2 monk team, you should pressure everyone as much as possible, save up ur adrenaline for oppenings. Dont attack the same target... use the mesmer to shut down one monk, the ranger to camp the other monk, and keep an eye on the ele to stop its rtl spike. Then you spread ur pressure on the other characters in order to get going. The paragon isnt a high priority target because in 4v4 they are pretty gimped due to them being more effective with more allies.

Just keep trying to spike something, unless ur monk is fail he should be aright to survive, and their dps isnt that great. Make sure ur mesmer calls his diversions/shames. Those are great times to spike another target. This will result in either only having to deal with 1 monk healing ur target, or having one of the monks spike catching skills diverted. Usually its a WoH.

Another good idea is if the mesmer has blackout get him to diversion one monk, black out the other then you spike. If ranger has BHA then thats effective shut down.

Overl a good guide, oh one last thing. Definately rush spirits. Each one takes 3-5 seconds to set up, but once up are like a turret thats a bitch. Rush em...
If you have a ranger dont worry though, get him to interupt the spirits. Easy interupts and without em the rit is gone. Evaluate the team as you rush.

deluxe · Oct 09, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I approve of this guide. ;p
It's a shame though that the people who should read this, wont.

Reverend Dr · Oct 09, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

This is generally good, but the giant glaring thing that jumped out at me is echo blackout.

Blackout in a good player's hands is dangerous, but echo blackout is terrible. It forces their whole bar to be just a single shutdown, when it could have a lot of versitility along with a strong shutdown. Anyone I see playing echo blackout, I usually leave alone (aside from a stray KD or interrupt on the horribly predictable blackout), as these are going to be bad players using a bad bar. This example seems horribly out of place considering the rest of the article.

bungusmaximus · Oct 09, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Awesome, you put quite a lot of time into that, kudo's. Newbs plz read, and read again

X Cytherea X · Oct 09, 2008, 10:44 AM // 10:44

too long. but i did read, lol. it's a good guide.

AS AN ASSASSIN, these are the criteria by which i prioritize targets:
- squishiness (armor, health, death penalty)
- self-defense (stance or enchant with >50% block , super prots)
- threat (whether offensive or defensive)

1. target is squishy, has no defense, and is a threat
ex: dom/migraine mes, good spiker eles or sins, stanceless monks or necs, spiritspam early on
choose who i can kill the fastest and surest

2. target is squishy, has no defense, but is not a threat
ex: noob degen necs/mes, flare eles

3. target is tough, has no defense, and is a threat
ex: shock axe, good warrs and dervs
can become priority 2 if your team cant handle em

4. target is tough, has low defense, and is not a threat
ex: noob warriors, dervs, and rangers

5. target is squishy, has high defense, and is a threat
ex: fortress monk, antimelee necs+stance, inept/clums+distortion, resto rits with wardingweapon
i hate this category! try to force kills on other targets. dont focus on these guys cuz they have all they need against you. try to catch them offguard. can become priority 4 if they're really pissing you off.

6. target is tough, has defense, and is a threat
ex: stunning w/p, escape scythe/HaO packhunters, good bow rangers
just hope your team doesnt crumble

7. target is squishy, has defense, but is not a threat
ex: critical defense sins with lousy combo, 55 monks, tanker eles

8. target is tough, has defense, and is not a threat
ex: most paragons. and of course... the mending wammo!

moriz · Oct 09, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

this is pretty good. however, you've merely wrote a massive post for what i described in a few lines in mine:

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

For quick reference, here's a simplifed list of threats to you as a warrior and to your team:
1. Anything that's wildly out of position and anything you can kill in the next 3 hits (low targets, including monks, as well as "smart" assassins that teleport in 3 aggro ranges away from the rest of his team)
2. Anything that can shutdown your support (dom mesmers)
3. Anything that can potentially kill your support (assassins, warriors, dervishes)
4. Anything that can shut you down (curse necros)

Pressuring the above four, with an odd spike here or there on their healing support (if they have one) is often the best way to win.

we are written for different audiences apparently. my guide is more focussed on players who already grasps the basics, and offers tips to take them into the next level (which can potentially take a long time to develop on their own). yours is more of a beginner guide i guess.

Turbobusa · Oct 09, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

My monk used to have a tormented shield, and I must be the most terrible pvp monk playing.
I wouldn't use that as a sign of player level

Aera · Oct 09, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

tl;dr ( no offense to your post, i just know all the stuff

) but im sure you didnt mention this:

as soon as you go on a target, they will go for you most of the times as well. people in ra are stupid, that's what they do.

Jeydra · Oct 10, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anime Divine

so now i have a question say you have 1 monk 1 axe war(me) 1mesmer 1 ranger

fighting 2 monks a paragon and ride the lighning ele./ 1 monk 1 resto rit a paragon and ride the lighning ele
how do you counter 2 monks. never seem to be able to beat them.

Two Monks is an special case, but quite similar to the case where both teams have a healer. The big difference is that it is now much harder to pressure through all that healing; on the plus side it is also a lot harder for them to pressure through your healing (less offense). In the same vein 2 Monks vs. no healer is very bad, you usually can't force a kill before you die (sadly

)

Anyway, all respect to Luminarus but if this is RA there is no chance you can coordinate teams like what he suggests. You have to make do with what you can control and observe, which is your character and your allies actions - you can't tell your allies to do this and this because there usually isn't the time to do so. What you can do in this case is to try and get as much damage as possible to the other team. Unload adrenaline on one guy, change targets once he gets protted, and do it again. If your allies have damage (as opposed to degen), then pay attention to whether or not they are calling targets, and support their spikes if you can. Defensive play kicks in if it becomes apparent that your Monk isn't holding up - perhaps party bars are falling, or he calls low energy. Then lineback and KD their Paragon / Ele, whichever is causing more damage.

You are hoping for an eventual spike to go through, or for the Monks' energy to run dry. In some cases there are extra things you can do as well - perhaps the Ele is bad and doesn't switch targets, then you might be able to drag him away from the two Monks and kill him. Otherwise if one Monk is Zealous Benediction based while the other is Word of Healing, the ZB Monk will run out of energy first (he has to cast ZB sometimes, and if he 'misses' it's 10 energy cost for not all that much heal). Take advantage of that knowledge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

However it is a good indication. Tormenteds again dont symbolise a good player, they symbolise a good ursan, or someone with lots of money/pve experience. True, they show that the player has spent lots of time on that char, but I know I saw a warrior, black fow, tormented sword and shield, chaos gloves, dread mask... the works with a palading wammo build THAT HE DIDNT EVEN USE CORRECTLY.

Tormented shields don't always mean a good player, yes I agree - but it usually does. It means the player has either done a lot of PvE or a lot of PvP. Both leads to better play. I know some people will disagree with me, but I think even PvE can lead to better play because you learn which skills are good and which skills are not. How many God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals do you see who have bad bars? They may be bad players (sometimes) but they usually have at least decent bars.

There is no surefire way of telling if a player is good or bad until you watch them on the battlefield - that's just how things are. But tormented shields are, I find, a great signpost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Blackout in a good player's hands is dangerous, but echo blackout is terrible. It forces their whole bar to be just a single shutdown, when it could have a lot of versitility along with a strong shutdown. Anyone I see playing echo blackout, I usually leave alone (aside from a stray KD or interrupt on the horribly predictable blackout), as these are going to be bad players using a bad bar. This example seems horribly out of place considering the rest of the article.

What if your team doesn't have interrupts, or the Ranger doesn't interrupt Blackout? What if you are not on a character with a (ranged) KD? What if you miss? Even a single Blackout that gets through can be devastating - that's why Wail of Doom is so powerful in TA, it's pretty much a ranged Blackout that's impossible to interrupt.

Also, you might think the bar is terrible, but if you see your opponent using it, like it or not you have to play against it. If a Mesmer is using this, are you really going to leave him alone? With a speedboost your Monk can't out-kite him, and Blackout can't be protted anyway. Also consider his bar: Echo, Blackout, speedboost, Ether Feast (maybe), Res - that means there are 3 more skills on the bar, and given the high spec in Domination Magic they're probably from the Dom line. Do you really want to know what they are?

I definitely believe that Mesmers who run Echo Blackout need to die ... unless your team has a good player who counters Blackout (eg. by Diverting it).

@X Cytherea X - nice classification but again I don't agree with it. Consider for example your priority target #2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

2. target is squishy, has no defense, but is not a threat
ex: noob degen necs/mes, flare eles

Suppose you go into a game, 4v4, then one of your opponents (who's playing a Mesmer) disconnects. For the sake of this discussion let's also assume that he is certainly not coming back. He is squishy, has no defense and is certainly not a threat. Are you going to kill him first? Well you could, and hope your opponents are bad enough to spend the resses on someone who's disconnected, but I wouldn't gamble on it. 4v3 games might heavily favour the team with 4 players but it still isn't a guaranteed victory. You're much better off killing the players who are dangerous, and that means I target anyone who is a threat before anyone who isn't.

@moritz - I see a lot of difference actually. You don't distinguish between teams with Monks and teams without. You don't distinguish between when to lineback and when not to. You say RA is surprisingly defensive; I say RA is surprisingly offensive (you aren't guaranteed a Monk). You don't distinguish between greater threats and weaker threats, and you don't cover Superior runes, hard counters to your allies, etc. And finally I pretty much spent the entire post elaborating on one subsection of your guide, so it's more detailed.

I like my guide more, but of course, I wrote it and so am probably heavily biased towards it. To each his own

Master Ketsu · Oct 10, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

There are good players who play bad bars in RA, just for fun.

Reverend Dr · Oct 10, 2008, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Echo Blackout is bad because it only beats bad players.

It really doesn't matter what else is on the bar, it has echo and blackout, the rest of the bar won't be usable.

Blackout doesn't stop movement, a decent monk will kite the blackout the same as kiting a warrior. A decent, not even a great monk, will still have windows to cast.

If the monk kites the mesmer back enough we'll have a change in targeting priorites. Not from threat, but from opportunity. Kite the mesmer far enough away from their team then a switch to it as a target will result in either a free kill, or forcing their backline into a bad situation which will still probably result in a kill.

Comparing Wail of Doom to Blackout is a terrible comparison.

Really, I should not have to say that echo blackout is bad. I certainly should not have to sit down and explain why it is bad.

moko · Oct 10, 2008, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Suppose you go into a game, 4v4, then one of your opponents (who's playing a Mesmer) disconnects. For the sake of this discussion let's also assume that he is certainly not coming back. He is squishy, has no defense and is certainly not a threat. Are you going to kill him first? Well you could, and hope your opponents are bad enough to spend the resses on someone who's disconnected, but I wouldn't gamble on it. 4v3 games might heavily favour the team with 4 players but it still isn't a guaranteed victory. You're much better off killing the players who are dangerous, and that means I target anyone who is a threat before anyone who isn't.

if that team has a monk, and i happen to be on melee, i'll go on the disconnected guy, as long as i know the other 2 are not going to kill my team. i seriously do NOT think that in a 4v3 situation with a monk on both sides something can happen to my team. the mesmer is an easy target, does not kite, has no defense, and if he won't be protted i can smash the face a lot hard. this means it's going to cost a lot of energy for the other monk. if not, well, then i get a free kill and they'll have to waste a rez eventually.

if there's no monk on their team, i'll go on something else, because 3 MIGHT wipe us. if we don't have a monk and they do, i'll ignore the disconnected guy, too. as he's no treat and the advantage has to be used to bash on the other 3.

Quote:

Tormented shields don't always mean a good player, yes I agree - but it usually does. It means the player has either done a lot of PvE or a lot of PvP. Both leads to better play. I know some people will disagree with me, but I think even PvE can lead to better play because you learn which skills are good and which skills are not. How many God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals do you see who have bad bars? They may be bad players (sometimes) but they usually have at least decent bars.

i agree with him. sure, there ARE exceptions, but there are also exceptions of high ranked PvP people that are TERRIBLE. so, any possibly good sign is positive to me, and gives some RA hopes at least. :P

Mouse at Large · Oct 10, 2008, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Just my 2c for what it's worth. I'm not high ranked in RA, but have played a fair bit almost exclusively as an Ele. Though I've run a variety of builds, currently I'm finding most success with a water build inc. Glyph of Immolation/Steam.

From my point of view, there are a few things that I consider important in target selection.....

1) Own team makeup - If I'm the only squishy, then in all probability I will be ganked. In that case, my aim is to accept that I'll probably be going face down and to try to tie up the one or two attackers for as long as possible by slowing/blinding to let the other team members go 3v2. Therefore my priority is whatever is heading in my direction. To futher refine, assassins will generally get blinded, other melees slowed.

2) Other team makeup - Always tab through at start. This gives you an idea of the team you are facing and potential bars, especially when you catch an opponent casting. Then prioritise as above. In my case, my purpose is to a) reduce melee effectiveness b) damage and kill c) pressure.

3) Initial skirmish - this generally sets the tone. If you have a team containing a Leeeeeerooooy, you are not generally going to last too long

As a squishy, it's sometimes possible to to take a few secs to quickly evaluate what the main threats are before engaging and then use your skills where they can be of most help.

Finally, and on a general point, don't take RA too seriously. I've had really good groups and really crap groups, but I've never felt the need to start trashing anyone in chat. It's only a game after all

Byron · Oct 10, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Lineback front-loaded damage. Lyssa dervs, combo sins, deadly paradox guys. Preventing front-loaded guys from unloading damage will do more than swinging your weapon at softies.

Striken7 · Oct 10, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

If you instantly knew all the builds of the other team when they loaded into the match, this guide would be a lot more helpful. Unfortunately, you have no idea if the enemy Sin has Frenzy but no cancel stance, or if that Necro has Shield Bash, or if the Ranger is running 1 or 3 interrupts. You can't tell if those enchantments on the whole team are Life Barrier or Mending. You don't know how many rezzes they might have, or who has them.

In most cases, in the time it takes you to actually be able to use most of the information in this guide, the match would be nearly over. In reality, you either guess correctly and pick the optimal target with extremely limited information, or you guess wrong and waste time and energy (literally) trying to kill a bad target. Or you stood around and did nothing but watch until you saw enough of the enemy skills to actually KNOW who the best target is, in which case the rules presented here could be followed. Guessing the right target can be fairly easy with a little common sense, but it's still just guessing, and trying to put some sort of rule to your guesses based on a couple examples is not only futile, but can backfire very easily by leading you to wrong conclusions.

The best advice is to understand the very basic mechanics of GW and use them to choose your target. Know the armor levels of the professions, know what classes have the best self healing and stances, know who are best at physical/caster shutdown, etc. Unless a person is running a particularly niche build, they will generally fall into the boundaries of their professions expectations. That is all the information you have going into RA, and that is the information that will serve you best in picking your initial target.

If you guess right, then there isn't much else to know or rules to follow; as long as your team performs "good enough", you should win. If you guess wrong, chances are you will have lost by the time you know which person actually poses the biggest threat. But, if your team manages to hold on for an extended match, you should absolutely be learning what skills the enemy team has and how they use them in order to pick the true target of choice, as rare as those cases may be.

X Cytherea X · Oct 10, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Suppose you go into a game, 4v4, then one of your opponents (who's playing a Mesmer) disconnects. For the sake of this discussion let's also assume that he is certainly not coming back. He is squishy, has no defense and is certainly not a threat. Are you going to kill him first? Well you could, and hope your opponents are bad enough to spend the resses on someone who's disconnected, but I wouldn't gamble on it. 4v3 games might heavily favour the team with 4 players but it still isn't a guaranteed victory. You're much better off killing the players who are dangerous, and that means I target anyone who is a threat before anyone who isn't.

even if they dont disconnect, these guys in priority 2 are a weak spot in the enemy team, and it is a good idea to exploit them. let the monk burn energy on him and his teammates waste res sigs on him. you said yourself, the aim is to kill any character. as an assassin, i would rather kill a non-threat quickly than a threat somewhat slowly.

there are exceptions, of course. if my team is pressured is too much i might go at the n/w or w/e instead of the flare guy. or if the enemy monk is too pro(rare imo tbh) and the flare guy isnt dying, i will switch to the monk, count stance durations and try to get some attack skills in between. but yeah that 1-8 list is usually how i prioritize. the decisions are made in split seconds tho.

but that's from an assassin pov, if you're running something else, different options apply

...

one thing you can add to "advanced techniques" is the SPAWN KILL, that i do allll the time. best used on priority 1's. immediately after a foe drops, tab through everyone to see if they are ressing, if yes run and stand over the corpse, and as soon as it gets up, press cspace12345656565656. it's so merciless, i almost feel bad... almost >:P

...

cool guide once again. your examples are so clear, it's like actually being in RA! lol